The new face of poverty
VIRGINIA GALT
Globe and Mail Update
In spite of their higher education levels, new immigrants to Canada are worse off now than they were in the 1990s, Statistics Canada reported Tuesday.
In 2002, low-income rates among immigrants during their first full year in Canada were 3.5 times higher than those of Canadian-born people. By 2004, the rate had eased only slightly, to 3.2 times higher, Statscan reported.
“These rates are higher than at any time during the 1990s, when the low-income rates for immigrants were roughly three times higher than the rate for Canadian-born people.”
The greatest concern from a public policy standpoint is that those who have the most difficulty establishing themselves are highly-educated and highly-skilled immigrants, Statscan analysts said.
Rising educational levels among immigrants throughout the 1990s and the first half of this decade have had little beneficial effect on their family income levels in their early years in Canada, according to the research.
The face of poverty in Canada is no longer that of a single mother on welfare, Statscan said.
“The shift to more educated and skilled class immigrants has changed the face of the chronically poor in the 1990s [and] if one is going to address issues of chronic poverty, it is necessary to know something of the groups that constitute the majority in this class,” wrote Statscan analysts Garnett Picot, Feng Hou and Simon Coulombe.
For the purposes of this study, low income was defined as family income below 50 per cent of median income of the total population, adjusted by family size. The low-income cutoff point was $26,800, in 2003 constant dollars, for a family of four.
Immigrants described as living in chronic low income were those who earned low incomes for at least four of their first five years in Canada.
“Skilled class immigrants were, in fact, more likely than the family class immigrants to enter low income upon entry to Canada, and to find themselves in chronic low income during the first years in this country,” the report said. This could be because family class immigrants find themselves joining relatives who are already established to some extent.
“Host countries, such as Canada, look to the skills and initiative of immigrants to promote economic growth. Immigrants, in turn, look to the host country for opportunities to gainfully employ their skills and abilities,” Statscan said.
“Among those who arrived in 2000, 52 per cent of those in chronic low income were skilled economic immigrants, About 41 per cent had university degrees, up from 13 per cent in the 1993 cohort.”
Those who entered the company as information technology professionals were more likely than other skilled immigrants to find themselves trapped in a low-income rut, the study found.
Whatever the reason, “the relatively inferior situation among the skilled class (as compared to the family class) worsened significantly over the 1990s as their number increased substantially and the high-tech sector slowed down after 2000,” said the researchers.
Globe and Mail Readers Comment
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Benjamin Wu from Toronto, writes: In my personal opinion, this is slightly misleading in the following sense. While immigrant labour may be highly skilled to do a job, relative to Canadian born labour, they may not be AS capable. This can come from a variety of barriers such as cultural, language, etc. The argument can apply that as a result, some immigrant labour is therefore relatively less efficient/productive, and thus gets a relatively lower wage (ie. odds are someone with english as a second language will probably not be as effective of a grade school teacher as someone born here).
Now 3.5X poverty rate amongst immigrants is unacceptable and through training and the development of broader jobs (ie. jobs which can take advantage of an immigrant language skills on top of their technical skills and education) we should be able to narrow that gap. That said, I don’t think we will (or that we should expect) to see total equality.
If you compare second generation immigrants, I would expect that rate to be a lot lower thus reflecting the aforementioned barriers that are simply a reality in ANY job market.
Posted 30/01/07 at 12:08 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Jack Frost from Toronto, Canada writes: I heard (first hand) of a situation where an Indian-born married couple, both highly educated medical professionals, were having diffuculties finding work. They had gone through the qualification procedures that are required in Canada, and both were eligible to get work. The wife got work - her story: she was ‘agreeable’ to the place that hired her. She is a pleasant person who is easy to get along with, and her english is much better than her husband’s. The husband: still looking for work. He can be abrasive, and feels as if he shouldn’t have to look this hard for work….it’s going on five years now, and still waiting for work… The lesson: Try to fit in. Face facts - you are in a different country, with a much different culture. The same behaviours and attitudes that exist in other countries don’t exist here. One of the biggest factors in hiring decisions is a person’s ability to ‘fit in’ with the rest of the team….People always ask the question - ‘can I work for 8 hours a day with this person?’ More importantly, do I WANT to? Also - things are picking up in China and India these days - human rights are right around the corner - the alternative potentially exists to stick with what is familiar and stay in your home country - help to build it by practising your profession in your country of origin.
Posted 30/01/07 at 12:43 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Guillaume Afleck from Ottawa, Canada writes: A better understanding of Canadian demographics can help illuminate some of the issues that seem to be captured here. When you look at the post-war boom bubble on the chart the fortunes of those born in 1961 and later are completely different than those born from 1946 to 1961. If you had a pulse and a C- average 3-year University degree you got to be a Director general somewhere, if you wanted. For the 1961 and later cohort, even the ’sure things’ including engineering, medicine and so on all turned into contracting sectors just when 61’s were approaching university graduation, and remainaed so for over a decade. (David K Foot explains this line very well in Chapter 1 of Boom, Bust..) So, for those left behind they became adaptive, created jobs, switched professions, and tried new things - but as a group they are often still trying to get to a position that a pre-61er had shortly after college. In short, with the huge surplus of educated and experienced post 61′ers waiting for any promotion to mid and upper ranks there is no leadership position in any organization for which there are not dozens of qualified, capable and impatient post 61′ers ready to compete for the job. The genuine labour shortages in Canada are for entry level (even skilled, like computer scientists, but at the starting wage) and manual labour / agricultural type jobs. And we do not recruit immigrants for those jobs. So an oversupply of educated, experienced Canadians are competing for the same jobs that we let skilled, or at least educated immigrants imagine that they will be getting. And when they don’t get the kind of job they feel they are qualified for? Well they feel pretty much the same as the post-61ers have felt for twenty years, except they are very far away from home.
Posted 30/01/07 at 12:46 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
S L from Burnaby, Canada writes: Ignorance is bliss Proud Canadian from the US…the fact is that unemployment are at all time lows, Canada is faced with an aging population and the birth rates in Canada keep getting lower…the fact is, is that Canada will have to rely on immigration to sustain its output/economy as they will form the essential tax base in which pays for the social programs Canada has in place (especially when baby boomers retire and start to strain health care and CPP). We need to introduce ways that these people can aclimatize to our nation so that they can begin contributing to our society ASAP.
Posted 30/01/07 at 12:47 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Irie Moonstone from Mystic Springs, Jamaica writes: Be happy with what your new country has to offer.
Be realistic too.
I think a lot of immigrants go to Canada without a clue about anything.
I know an arrogant Brit from Devon who lives in Canada who is not highly educated but expected to get the same sort of job he had in England.
In Canada there’s a lot more intelligent people applying for the jobs he was after.
Net result: An unhappy immigrant that whines and complains all the time about his low paying job.
Posted 30/01/07 at 12:52 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Dark Angel from The West, Canada writes: How easy do you think it was for German and Italian immigrants to this country in the 50’s? A decade before they had been the enemy in WW II. They were not readily accepted but they learned the language, they worked hard and they assimilated while keeping their own traditions. Every wave of immigrants has struggled so what’s new? I’m a Canadian and I’ve lived abroad, and I wasn’t expecting home in the countries I lived in. So when in Rome you know the rest! The ability to communicate is foremost no matter what your skills are.
Posted 30/01/07 at 12:55 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Jim Whitney from Kearney ON, Canada writes: Proud Canadian from the United States: Canada must increase its need for immigrants because the uneducated, like yourself, refuse to do the menial labour anymore.
Posted 30/01/07 at 1:02 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Robert Boyd from Windsor, Canada writes: Too often potential immigrants are told that ‘Canada needs your Skills’.
They are not told that it’s the Provinces that decide if your qualifications are equivalent to the (guffaw) high standards that exist in, say, Ontario.
Qualifications are assessed by the very groups who have a vested interest in not allowing you to work.E.G Doctors/Teacher organizations or
Community Colleges which are only interested in the income generated from ‘upgrading’ skills.
Posted 30/01/07 at 1:07 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Franklin williams from Trinidad and Tobago writes: The statistics are not surprising. If the government continues to allow the professional bodies to block non-canadian qualified professionals from practising their trade such as engineers, doctors, dentists etc. then Canadians can look forward to asking engineer and doctor taxi drivers for free professional advice!
Canada can use the very same immigrants in the expansion of its infrastructure and all the other things needed in a growing economy and population. Incompetent government and ill conceived spending expeditions in Afghanistan et al only serve to heighten the demand for more and more and more taxes.
The insatiable appetite for taxes is what is pauperising not only immigrants, but all Canadians.
Posted 30/01/07 at 1:07 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Anthony B. from Sydney, NS, Canada writes: Why is this a surprise? No new immigrant to any country is going to ‘hit the ground running.’ Differences in culture, business practices, language and communication skills, and attitude all contribute to initial difficulties in getting established.
Posted 30/01/07 at 1:08 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Jed McGarry from Calgary, Canada writes: It’s a little more complicated than simply saying ‘get used to your new country’. A lot of people come here as medical professionals/engineers, etc. and find they have to drive taxis to make a living because their degrees are not recognized. I think a lot of people here don’t quite understand what that means.
Most immigrants come here with open minds wanting to belong and try to do so as best as they can. Don’t treat them like they’re outsiders because that only leads to alienation.
Posted 30/01/07 at 1:09 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Quentin Brayley-Berger from Toronto, Canada writes: A University degree is not a guaranteed ticket for a job/career/ etc. This is a concept that 60% of my graduating class didn’t understand, and are still unemployed.
The only difference, is that they can’t blame this problem on Canada’s unwillingness to bring the silver spoon to the mouths of immigrants.
Posted 30/01/07 at 1:09 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
R B from Newmarket, Canada writes: I think that the employment situation with skilled immigrants is worth note. But, I caution the use of an overly humanitarian appeal and useless statastics to make the point. Statistics are not accurate and are based on formulaes employing certain assumptions. They acan be (and usually are) faulted and misleading at best. The reality is that there is a problem, but to say that many live below poverty is over stretching the case. For example, the poverty argument assumes that the person has set monthly expenses of XX amount, lives as a single person/family and has no family support from relatives in the parent country. I personally know of two families where the parents have not been able to find suitable employment for their academic background. In one case, the family lives in a modest house but both individuals drive mercedes - while on supplemental income! They are given money from their parents in the middle east in order to sustain a standard of living here in Canada. The article would argue that [based on Canadian reported income] these people live in poverty - clearly not the case. They would also be lighted if they were to know that they were considered as poverty cases. In the second instance, a several families live together in a common house ans share expenses. These people would also be considered to live in poverty since the statistics don’t factor in these circumstances. The fact of the matter is that our statistics don’t measure up and our government and NGO’s need to be realistic when presenting these issues to the public. Unfortuantely for every true instance of poverty that exists there are 3 or 4 statistical cases that are not true. Our government would do well to reconsider the best way to deal with the immigrants who abuse the current system so that the ones that actually need the help can get it.
Posted 30/01/07 at 1:09 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville, Canada writes: Proud Canadian from the United States, your English grammar is terrible! And, as an immigrant myself, I can tell you that the Immigration Officers should, first of all, learn how to be respectful to those coming in to Canada because, in most instances, their English is better than the Canadian educated citizen! On top of that, their discourtesy and arrogance leave a lot to be desired. My husband and I paid our own fares to come to Canada as immigrants and were received with such discourtesy that the first things I did was to put the Officer in his place and threaten to make an official complaint to the Department before paying my fare back to Britain! Well, needless to say, he climbed down from his high horse and eventually apologised. We have made it big time from our own resources, but not without experiencing great prejudice all along the way to our success. In my opinion, most of the immigrants I meet are better educated -even in English grammar - than most Canadian born citizens, even teachers! They do not learn the difference between a preposition and an adverb, how to use personal pronouns, the subjunctive mood, etc.. If you ask a lot of Canadian professionals who have the opportunity to travel to foreign lands for international seminars and conferences, they will tell you what a shock they get on returning to Canada, especially if they come through North America after experiencing the courtesy and respect they received in such foreign lands which, of course, they took at first as ‘gratitude for their visit’ instead of just ‘gracious welcoming of a stranger’. I have been a proud Canadian for 47 years and my sons have been trained to speak grammatical English and to be respectful and courteous to ALL HUMANITY. .
Posted 30/01/07 at 1:10 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
T G from Canada writes: I think people are missing the real point behind these numbers.
Most new immigrants cannot attain the same professional or social status as in their country of origin, due to the fact that most of their qualifications do not meet strict canadian standards.
In medicine, which I am most familiar with, the vast majority of ‘qualified candidates’ are painfully out of practice or are not up to date in regards to the standard of practice and system of ethics our health care principles dictate.
Most are qualified to go back to school or take licensing exams to meet qualifications-which is exactly what their Canadian born counterparts must do.
The idea that you can become a citizen and instantly be granted full equality in educational standards is not realistic.
I am an immigrant as is my whole family. They sarted from scratch again and became successful after a few years of dedication. I truly believe any new immigrant can acheive the same given time and dedication to their career.
Posted 30/01/07 at 1:15 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: Well said, Yvonne.
Posted 30/01/07 at 1:21 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Tim Rutkevich from Toronto, Canada writes: Jim Whitney, you miss one important factor in new immigration: it is very hard for a person who would be satisfied with menial labour to immigrate to Canada. Majority of immigrants are university educated. What Canada needs are low educated unambitious labourers who would work 3 minimum wage jobs and mind their own business. That is how this country have been build on. Unfortunately, now we are seeking ambitious professionals who face way too much red tape. In GTA there is an oversupply of skilled engineers. What it does: keeps wages low. Result: only recent immigrant would take a low paying job. But, a person who paid himself for Canadian university, took student loan, bought a car on payments, then bought a house with monthly mortgage payments; he can not take a job at lower payment without declaring insolvency.
Posted 30/01/07 at 1:21 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
C Morris from Montreal, Canada writes: Canadas social programs are too accessible. The jobs might not be readily available, but the social programs are certainly being utilized to the maximum! Persons who have recently emigrated from their countries to Canada very easily access our medicare system, can probably go on welfare if there isnt a job, and have more assistance from the benevolant societies representing their respective ethnicities, and the multiple charities. Ive travelled and have come to the conclusion Canada has a very high standard of living. Lastly, those people without jobs ought to look in the rural communities where there is a need for their skills…they cant have the best of everything. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms expresses the fundamental freedoms and that has been abused by people refusing to assimilate into our Canadian culture and yet taking advantage of the services offered. I often thought it would be ideal if healthcare wasnt free and people should live here for a period of time and pay taxes prior to accessing our free services. Complain complain complain! Stats Canada ought to implement a research project of the acquired higher standard of life for the people immigrating from other countries. Blah Blah Blah. As a native canadian, I sometimes feel like IM THE MINORITY! Thank you..All My Relations :)
Posted 30/01/07 at 1:26 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
true maple from Canada writes: Proud Canadian from United States - you are in no position to comment. The US should have closed the door on you.
Posted 30/01/07 at 1:27 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Tyler Somers from Canada writes: Yvonne — You are my new hero.
R.B. — Statistics are not accurate? Please share with us your understanding of statistical theory — I would love to hear why you think Statistics Canada is a big ol’ waste of time.
Oh, wait — it is much better to use anecdotal evidence from people you know. It is so much easier to confirm your already held beliefs that way.
Posted 30/01/07 at 1:32 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
george moe from Algeria writes: Hey I immigrated to Canada and lived first hand the conditions described, but guess what the grass is greener in the US of A!
Posted 30/01/07 at 1:34 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Mike G from Toronto, Canada writes: Simply being educated is no golden key to a well paying carreer. There are language and cultural issues with foreign workers. I have worked with a few who I question actually had the credentials they claimed. Communication skills should be emphasized for new immigrants. I’ve met some who after a few years in Canada have a better vocabulary than most Canadians, and others who after 10 years are not even close to fluent.
Posted 30/01/07 at 1:38 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Dan H from Canada writes: Immigrants, welcome to Canada! You will have human rights and freedom here!!! wait a minute, do you have canadian working experience? no? huh, bye now.
Posted 30/01/07 at 1:40 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Trent Savinkoff from Canada writes: Good Post Yvonne, however having good or bad grammer does not make anyone a better Canadian.
Posted 30/01/07 at 1:43 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Colin C from Calgary, Canada writes: As an employer of skilled personnel, the biggest issue I have found with recent immigrants is language and communication. I have had the experience of trying to communicate with language challenged immigrants, only to have them nod as though they understand the issues, but knowing full well that they do not. Highly skilled fields of enterprise take a high degree of understanding to convert those skills into marketable and effective products. Once the basic language barrier is at least alleviated, then the new concepts that must be learned are the next challenge. These too are a challenge to only barely functional communicators. I feel badly for those who indeed have skills that in their native tongue could be highly leveraged, but as an employer, I can’t afford to pay them highly while they play catch up in that arena. I wish that every non-English speaking immigrant who arrives here would put an extremely high priority on upgrading their ability to communicate. Then their skills are far more applicable in their field of experience and they will find employment much more easily.
Posted 30/01/07 at 1:47 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Xaos Calgarian from Calgary, Canada writes: A difficult situation, but one wonders why an immigrant would choose to come to Canada without securing suitable employment beforehand. Keep in mind that these are not refugees or family-class immigrants. I would certainly not consider going to any other country without first obtaining employment that would provide for myself and my family. To come here with the expectation that their foreign credentials would ensure a good job shows that they simply did not do their research (enough Canadians already have enough problems with their Canadian degrees). I would firmly challenge the false logic behind sustaining a population via immigration anyways. The amount of immigration required to do so would far outstrip our abilities to provide any sort of social support, not to mention the security and cultural concerns. Asides, one only has to look to the Scandanavian countries to see that population growth does not have a positive correlation with economic growth. The secret is efficiency. If population growth was the key element in a strong economy, then how does one explain that those nations with the lowest birth rate are the top economic performers? No rush anyways. Look at the math–death rates vs birth rates immigration–and Canada’s population will not begin to decline until 2015 at least.
Posted 30/01/07 at 1:48 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Vasili Yeremenko from Canada writes: An American criticizing Canadian immigration quite funny. Canada is miles ahead of the USA in getting skilled people into our nation. The fact is within 5 to ten years Canada will have labor shortage and people will be here to take those jobs. Maybe we shpuld copy the Americans and have illegal uneducated immigrants working at starvation wages.
There are many, many things the USA does better than Canada, I may even say most things, but immigration is not one of them.
Posted 30/01/07 at 1:58 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
J.C. Davies from Canada writes: Imagine you are a professional living overseas who wishes to immigrate to Canada. You submit your application to the local Canadian embassy or consulate and then wait for 2-4 years (even as long as 6 years) for your application to be approved. And in the interim you do the following:
1. Work to improve English or French language skills;
2. Contact regulatory body to ascertain requirements for professional accreditation and licensing requirements (such as College of Physicians);
3. Contact professional organization (such as Ont. Medical Association) that may assist your career in Canada;
4. Contact potential employers;
5. Contact colleagues to inquire as to job climate and opportunities;
or
6. Do nothing but wait .
I think too many immigrants choose option 6, do nothing, and then upon their arrival in Canada expect that they’ll be greeted with open arms and a high paying job.
Posted 30/01/07 at 1:58 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Cassidy Noca from London, United Kingdom writes: Any person contemplating a decision to emigrate to another country should be well informed about the transferrability of their educational and skill set before taking such a leap. In highly regulated and competitive professions such as Medicine and Law, one would expect some investigation into the barriers to entry prior to making a commitment to a new country. A more streamlined system of recognising foreign credentials would be desirable, especially in professions where there is a need, but immigrants should have realistic expectations. There are no guarantees.
Posted 30/01/07 at 2:03 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
stand up mimi from Vancouver, Canada writes: Yvonne W: So most immigrants you meet are better educated than most Canadians? Maybe that’s because most immigrants have to be highly educated in order to come here. In Canada as a whole, there’s a mix of highly educated and less educated people, as there is in Britain and everywhere else. You have a point about grammar, though. I think email and instant messaging are partly to blame for the lapse in language skills. When writing becomes nearly as immediate as speaking, structure seems to go out the window. As for the subjunctive - I believe there has been a decline in its use in English speaking countries in general, not just in Canada. If only it were not so!
Posted 30/01/07 at 2:10 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
M Kaly from Toronto, Canada writes: I sympathize with the challenges faced by immigrants, educated and highly skilled or not. But I also happen to know dozens of Canadian-born, fluent English speaking people with multiple degrees who are working in unpaid internships or not working at all. I never thought I would say this, but until I and my three roommates (all of us Canadian-born, fluent in English as well as eleven other languages between us, and having at least three university degrees each) are able to earn enough money to rent our own apartments (forget about the dream of owning a home), I won’t have much sympathy.
Posted 30/01/07 at 2:10 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Mr Fijne from Calgary, Canada writes: Without the US neighbor free market influence, Canada would be among the last Stalinist countries on the face of planet earth. Rampant socialism, bureaucracy, politics of envy turned a national sport and condescendence toward new comers, Canada may very well have been included in Borat’s spoof. Canadians do enjoy showing off their lifestyle to newcomers, tolerate if the new comer reaches a approaching social level but do not forgive him if he does better than them. Canada’s standards are it seems the highest in the world in every domain known to mankind: at that rate, Nobel Prize laureates must be driving cabs… sadly they may if they come from elsewhere… In the past year we have now seen attacks on dual citizens using the Lebanon crisis as a pretext. Canada seems for canadians and that implies born canadians, even if in the end succesful immigrants pay the taxes many of these couch potatoes won’t, in order to preserve their worldclass lifestyle. Skilled immigrants do not look for silver spoons, believe me, they have too much fire inside to make it in a foreign country, speak a foreign language and do better for themselves and naively for the country who welcome them/understand that they will bring their talent to serve their adopted country. Now that new comers have respected their part of the deal, that they have been successful and repaid thousand times Canada for the opportunity, voices are starting to criticize them and envy them. Be careful of what you wish because in the end you may get what you want: unskilled refugies that politicians can bribe with a dishwasher, captive audience that will vote for them and provide cheap labour. But that has never been, is not and never will be my vision of Canada and I surely hope for all that it is not canadians’.
Posted 30/01/07 at 2:15 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
P W from Kelowna, Canada writes: I recruit poeple. I need to recruit more. I would love to hire more immigrant workers BUT there’s a catch. My stakeholders and the collective agreement I have to work under require that we use Canadian education programs as a basis when looking at applicants. This means that new immigrants have to have their education from overseas evaluated by a Cdn university, college or trade school. Many of these immigrants either a) don’t have the paper work to back up their quals, b) when they find out that they would have to write a test or take an additional course, they give up, and/or c)don’t even try to get their quals evaluated.
That said, if they do have quals that are recognized by someone somewhere in Canada, I’ll hire them. Infact I have.
Posted 30/01/07 at 2:25 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
anu bose from ottawa, Canada writes: J.C Davies-immigrants cannot enter Canada without a good knowledge of one of the two languages of the country, they are selected for theri skills, they are told by immigration officials that their qualifications will be accepted at par….no one bothers to tell them that the self-regulatory bodies practice supply management…very few immigrants wait for opportunities to fall into their laps.
Posted 30/01/07 at 2:28 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
polar camel from Toronto, Canada writes: People who decide to immigrate, especially highly educated people, should conduct their own research before coming to Canada. The mighty Internet allows anybody to find all possible pieces of information on any chosen topic. But we keep hearing and reading stories about surprised newcomers who didn’t expect that their credentials and experience would be questioned and/or scrutinized by Canadian bodies. Some of these credentials and experience might be regarded as inadequate or irrelevant in Canadian reality. Well, if one is so educated and sophisticated, one should make an effort to prepare onself BEFORE immigrating to Canada! It’s hard to feel sorry towards those who being educated and considered ’smart’, choose not to invest time and energy in finding out about any prospective barriers and difficulties they might face upon arrival in a new country. On the other hand, we should probably rethink and discuss again the whole immigration policy focused mainly on attracting educated and skilled immigrants. Do we really need these people so badly? Maybe instead of investing millions of dollars in various settlement and language programs for the newcomers, we should be investing the same money in our own students? Think about it - if 5 years ago we would have helped 1000 more students to get into medical schools in Ontario, today we would have had 1000 more doctors - we could have used the same money, which we had spent on helping new immigrants settling down in Ontario. Many of these immigrants will never be doctors, will never work in their professions, may not even learn English well enough. Sure, we need SOME number of immigrants, but it’s time to open discussion on how many and with what kind of education. As it is now, we are misleading the prospective newcomers and kidding ourselves that these waves of immigrants will really solve problems of our demography and economy.
Posted 30/01/07 at 2:28 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
James Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: The problem is that Canada’s immigration selection process which gives maximum points to a PhD no matter the field of study does not recognize the reality of what jobs are in demand and in short supply. What is in demand are skilled trades and unskilled manual work. I have immigrant clients in the skilled trades and, believe me, they get good jobs very quickly even with poor English skills. On the other hand I meet tons of evereducated taxi drivers in Vancouver every day. I’ve met very educated Chemists and PhD Economists in taxis here.
Posted 30/01/07 at 2:28 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
bruce weaver from Toronto, writes: How about learning proper English or French, and quit worrying about what goes on in Somalia and Palestine. You are in Canada now, worry about schools, taxes, health care, you might be aurprised. You will fit in better and maybe get a better job.
Posted 30/01/07 at 2:32 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Irie Moonstone from Mystic Springs, Jamaica writes: Yvonne,
You think they speak better English in the UK? Try going back there and see for yourself.
The most popular word I young people saying was AIN’T. How very British of them.
Most Brits are doing eveything they can to get over to Canada, then all they do is whinge like you.
Brits are the most arrogant race on the planet and offer nothing to a new country when all they do is complain.
Posted 30/01/07 at 2:35 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Rob Bairos from Toronto, Canada writes: ‘For the purposes of this study, low income was defined as family income below 50 per cent of median income of the total population, adjusted by family size.’
Please keep in mind, this definition of low income has nothing to do with
actual standards of living or hardships of poverty.
By statscan standards, in a population of dot-com millionaires, one half would be considered low-income.
Rob
Posted 30/01/07 at 2:36 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Sue W from Canada writes: ‘….Whatever the reason, “the relatively inferior situation among the skilled class (as compared to the family class) worsened significantly over the 1990s as their number increased substantially and the high-tech sector slowed down after 2000….’
Whatever the reason? It’s called supply and demand.
Exactly how many ‘highly-educated and highly-skilled’ Canadian citizens lost their jobs in the 1990’s in various sectors, and how about in the high-sector industry when it crashed in 2000? And how many more information technology professionals was CIC welcoming into the country when there weren’ enough jobs for the Canadians already living here?
Posted 30/01/07 at 2:43 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
J.C. Davies from Canada writes: ‘J.C Davies-immigrants cannot enter Canada without a good knowledge of one of the two languages of the country, they are selected for theri skills, they are told by immigration officials that their qualifications will be accepted at par….no one bothers to tell them that the self-regulatory bodies practice supply management.’
Having the bare minimum language skills to come to Canada is not going to be sufficient for professional position. As others have pointed out, with the internet it’s easier than ever for immigrants to research Canada’s professional opportunities themselves.
Posted 30/01/07 at 2:43 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Mr Fijne from Calgary, Canada writes: PW from Kelowna, considering that professional associations from Alberta barely aknowledge degrees from a BC university, this is an open door for discrimination even if one provides the documentation. You may want to know that there have been precedents when companies have succesfully legally challenged these associations in order to have european PhDs recognized on par with Canadian’s. Acquisition of any other typically Canadian skills can surely be completed on the job or as a professional course without requiring the extra burden of University little dictators that often amounts to a disguised way to protect born canadians from the competition of better trained smart new comers…
Posted 30/01/07 at 2:44 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Joseph T from Victoria, Canada writes: Yvonne: good post. I think being a close neighbor of our American friends, we are starting to pick up some of their arrogance, too.
Posted 30/01/07 at 2:48 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Sue W from Canada writes: anu bose from ottawa: ‘….immigrants cannot enter Canada without a good knowledge of one of the two languages of the country….’
You can’t possibly be living in Canada.
Posted 30/01/07 at 2:50 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Renu Misir from Toronto, writes: Would these highly qualified professionals flock to our shores had they been (made) aware of difficulties in finding placements in their respective fields of expertise?
If this is the problem , then it must be addressed–to ensure that Canada is an attractive destination for skilled immigrants!
Posted 30/01/07 at 2:54 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Youssi M from Canada writes: Canada faces some difficult problems like environment, multiculturalism or the looming healthcare crisis. This issue, on the other hand, can basically be solved by one stroke of pen if we made immigration employment-based, like (kill me now) the US green card system. Parameters like cap on yearly intake, education, language requirements may all be subject to discussion but in principle the onus should be on employers* to seek out suitable workers abroad, not on *embassy bureaucrats socially engineering immigration intake according to some mathematical formula - as that’s what the current system amounts to.
Posted 30/01/07 at 2:56 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Pretty Much from Toronto, Canada writes: Sue W- There is a difference between immigrants and refugees. Immigrants are skilled and speak one of the two languages and refugees are well refugees.
Posted 30/01/07 at 2:59 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Tyler Somers from Canada writes: Rob — Well, if the population of Canada were all millionaires then I suppose your point would be worth something.
The next sentence in the paragraph you so selectively quoted from mentions the cutoff for a low income family of four is less than 30K a year. I don’t know about you, but that doesn’t sound like a whole lot.
Posted 30/01/07 at 3:04 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
M Kaly from Toronto, Canada writes: One problem I’ve seen among highly skilled or educated immigrants is a deluded sense of entitlement to a fantastic job upon arrival. A few years ago, I took a terrible temp job essentially sorting through papers in a freezing cold basement. A lot of the temps were new immigrants. They complained bitterly, failing to notice that a third of the temps were, like myself, Canadian-born recent graduates of medical school and law school who had not yet found good jobs but had to do something to pay the bills.
I myself am considering moving to another country, and am trying to save up money because I am operating under the assumption that despite my education and experience here, I will be waiting tables there. At least until I perfect the language and ‘do my time’. I would never be so deluded, entitled and selfish as to assume that the perfect job is going to fall into my lap.
Posted 30/01/07 at 3:06 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Corey Zimmermann from sudbury, Canada writes: There seems to be a lot of xenophobic comments on this board and thus the only conclusion is that the majority of people posting know little about the history and importance of immigration to this country. While it is true that most immigrants do expect a lot, Canada also demands a lot too. Simply willing to move over here is not enough anymore and as such most new immigrants have adapted and learnt english and have marketable skills: when they come over they are greeted by Canadains who more than likely have immigrant parents or grandparents but complain that they don’t speak english properly. The Government of Canada wants their skills but is unwilling to pressure the various labour organizations to ease its restrictions on hiring anyone unless they have a Canadian degree. But the real kicker is a public that is upset that they use our social programs. Ask yourself if you were a doctor in Vietnam would you come over here to go on welfare, sound realistic, of course not. Most Canadians are unaware that immigration is, has been and will be the key to future economic growth. Ideas and ingenuity are the new kings of industry and having highly skilled people washing dishes or driving cabs is ingorant and well wrong. But what do you expect fro ma society that blasts a single mother with three kids and then blasts immigration, the question is, is where do you think people come from?
Posted 30/01/07 at 3:06 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Boratsky Bob from Australia writes: So? For making good grmmer is what is making gud Canadian? I will hardly work to make this so. Thank yu Yvone Wacknagell You are nice weclome
Posted 30/01/07 at 3:06 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Sue W from Canada writes: Pretty Much from Toronto: You need to visit shopping areas and certain malls which cater to certain ethnic groups. Not all immigrants can speak, or even need to speak one of the two languages.
Posted 30/01/07 at 3:06 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Emma Hawthorne from Canada writes: It is a shame to see skilled people sidelined. Especially in scrappy locations such as Toronto where so many, immigrant and non-immigrant alike are sidelined. We really need a more inclusive and non-back-stabbing society. This isn’t the Titanic. There really are enough lifeboats for everyone. In fact, just imagine who wealthy everyone on earth would be if we could just expand our economies, even with credit, to include the four billion now locked out! However the new immigrant jobsite is an excellent idea. Imagine a place where an employer can find PhDs who are eager to work and probably would sacrifice some wages early on to help new companies get going. It could be ideal for entreprenuers with big dreams and little cash and skilled immigrants who want to make it big!
Posted 30/01/07 at 3:15 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Martin Chriton from Waterloo, Canada writes: Those that are demanding people with PhDs from third world countries (with most likely worse training than those with PhDs from more reputable N.A. schools) should volunteer to be patients of those doctors.
Personally I’d like to make sure my doctors are 100% as qualified as they think they are.
Posted 30/01/07 at 3:19 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Pretty Much from Toronto, Canada writes: Sue W- I am talking about the skilled professionals who move here who are actually applying for jobs not the family they bring with them. I am sorry if foreign accents and foreign languages bother you so much.
Also, I need to point out that the Government immigration system is crap. If doctors are required to go through 7 years of training to start practiving here why even allow them to come in. I know a lot of doctors who get fed up and move to the states where the pay is better, the qualification year is about a year or so (which is reasonable) and they are treated much better.
On the other hand, I know an immigrant who trained in AC and refrigeration in his home country and is gainfully employed here since the oppurtunity is unlimited. Why accept immigrants whose skills are saturated in the first place?
Posted 30/01/07 at 3:20 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Penny Dreadful from Waterloo, Canada writes: My concern is that our immigration policy is holding down wages in jobs that may have had the potential to provide a decent living without a flood of entrants to the market every year. By taking in so many new immigrants, it increases the supply of low wage earners willing to do those jobs, and as a result makes it harder for those doing this work now to get ahead. The people that are not getting ahead? No surprise - they are the next-to most recent immigrants. I think we have to do something temporarily to be fair to those that have joined us already, even if it makes life a little tougher and taxes a little higher for the rest of us. Perhaps not as drastic as a moratorium, but some sort of reduction.
Posted 30/01/07 at 3:21 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
polar camel from Toronto, Canada writes: There is one more issue to ponder: how ethical it is to attract highly educated individuals from poor countries where their skills and knowledge are much more needed and valued than they are in Canada? We allow the good doctors of China or Russia come over to our shores only to be asked by organizations like Doctors Without Borders to sponsor those who will need to help out sick populations of… China, Russia etc. Complete nonsense, isn’t it? Maybe it would be cheaper to help running the clinics in the under-developed countries with a fraction of money we spent on helping newcomers to settle down in Canada; the same newcomers who quickly learn how to complain about their dimplomas not being recognized here, eh?
Posted 30/01/07 at 3:22 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
g c from Toronto, Canada writes: My parents immigrated to Canada more than 20 years ago. Like many immigrants now, they were skilled professionals who ended up with jobs that did not pertain to their skills. Yet, they did not complain. They realized that they were having a much more difficult time here than back home, but staying was a choice they made for their kids. If you ask them now, they do not regret their decisions and their struggles. To the immigrants that are complaining now, if they cannot tolerate life here, they should just return back home. If you choose to stay and you work hard (improve your English, be less critical of your new country), life will get better. If anything, immigrants now have it much easier as racism is much less of a problem today than before.
Posted 30/01/07 at 3:22 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Michael Tripper from Vancouver, Canada writes: The truth is we have far too much immigration versus jobs in this country.
I was recently restructured out of my position, but I am not an immigrant, so I can’t complain about it and when I go to the EI offices, guess what, all the frontline workers are all immigrants.
You know why? Because no one else will hire them, so looking for work as a Canadian now means following the prescriptions of foreign workers.
And they tell to take any job at all, like being born is the same as immigrating here. Listen I love immigration but not the rampant greedy madness which is informing our policies.
BTW, I taught life and career skills in the DTEs and we focused on ‘fit’ for the at-risk youth clientele - guess what, almost every single employer wants people who fit into their workplace - the values of someone coming from a third-world country are not the same as canadian/american, etc.
Our policies have a total disconnect between reality and political panderers wanting to have a holier-than-thou public image.
Forcing unadapted foreigners on people is madness and can’t work. We have huge homelessness and unemployment, but the government would rather train foreign workers in English than upgrade and train people born in this country who obviously require the assistance.
Why? because immigrants won’t complain about workplace abuse and the steady erosion of rights desperate people bring to the workplace which can only serve what is clearly a corporate state -and I’m calling it, Canada is an estato corporativo.
And when I’m homeless in a month? because I am a short white male (defintely a visible minority) I’ll just be expected to die on the streets, with no one to cry victim for me. My only hope if I get EI, if not, hello death.
Thanks Canada, thanks for letting us all down, native born and suckers..I mean immigrant alike - oh and thanks for using immigrants to keep us all down. Nice.
Posted 30/01/07 at 3:29 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Tyler Somers from Canada writes: Jim — You make someone else’s point so well for them
Posted 30/01/07 at 3:36 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Adam Parkin from Canada writes: Newsflash….they arn’t that ‘highly educated’. I wonder if immigrants with Harvard, Yale, Oxford, or Sourbonne have the same difficulty. Unlikely. The truth is you only need to look at the social, medical and economic systems of countries that these people have immigrated from to understand that they are far from ‘highly educted’. Just because you have a piece of paper saying that you are a engineer or doctor in another country doesn’t entitle you to be one in Canada.
Posted 30/01/07 at 3:37 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
S Jung from Regina, Canada writes: This article misses the point. If someone wants to find a job in Canada it’s here for the taking. You might have to move from GTA to find work but if you want it bad enough you will find employmentt. In Western Cdn the economy is on overdrive and finding a job is very easy.
Posted 30/01/07 at 3:47 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Anthony B. from Sydney, NS, Canada writes: Irie Moonstone from Mystic Springs, Jamaica writes: Brits are the most arrogant race on the planet…’ Wow, that’s a bit of a generalisation, Moonstone. I guess racism goes both ways.
Posted 30/01/07 at 3:49 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Amil Lindsay from Vancouver, Canada writes: Mike Mike from Calgary’s comment that ‘Many of these highly educated immigrants probably bought their PhDs for about $20 somewhere in Asia or Eastern Europe’ just shows his ignorance. Most of the comments on this board seem to be informed from people’s xenophobia and anecdotal experiences.
Posted 30/01/07 at 3:52 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Mr Fijne from Calgary, Canada writes: Adam Parkin, they do! As for the highly educated Canadians, how many medicine, chemistry, physics etc… Nobel Prize winner are Canadians? Give us a break would you with your discrimination. Learn this is not sourbone but Sorbonne!
Posted 30/01/07 at 3:56 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Larry Robinson from white Rock, writes: Right on Robert Boyd. B.C.’s nursing shortage is the highest in Canada. A Scottish RN and midwife does the Canadian upgrade program with top marks. She starts her ward initiation period and is ridden into the ground by her coworkers, written off and told to take the entire course at a local college. The unions obviously have an interest in maintaining a shortage and education is business, they need clients. A container ship captain and harbour trainer moves from Hong Kong to Vancouver. He is amiable, buys a home here, moves his family here. He can find no work even distantly related to his profession. He works one year as a laborer in a machine shop. He returns to Hong Kong, his profession, and makes much more money than would be possible in Canada. His family’s attitude to Canada, they are professionals in positions around the globe, - a lazy, protective, and beaurocratic country that might be a nice place to retire. I am sorry to disturb some Canadians’ perception of our country, but many other nations have moved ahead of us. And not just in the deplorable state of our education, thank you Yvonne W.
Posted 30/01/07 at 3:57 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Vickky Angstrom from Calgary, Canada writes: Organizations like the Canadian Medical Association, the College of Engineers, etc etc etc would like to keep the price of their services high by excluding these folks. There is no evidence this is racially motivated, but it would be fair to say that they are not making enough effort. Many immigrants come from countries that are (or were) highly developed, like Iraq was before the first invasion. They are excluded. Not fair to them, since they came here in good faith, nor to the people of Canada who will need their services in the future.
Posted 30/01/07 at 3:57 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Q S from Toronto, Canada writes: You know, just ONCE I would like somebody to point out that this is not a CANADIAN issue. For example, in britain, builders (that means architects, contractors, electricians etc) are used to buidling buildings ‘from the outside in’. This is precisely opposite to how Canadian buidlings are erected. There is a period of adjustment - even for a British contractor relocating to Canada - and that period can take years. In the Middle East and the south Asia, meidcal doctors (esp. in the ME) favour the syringe for delivery of medication. In those countries, when you are ill and your doctor does NOT inject you with something, everyone says to you ‘Get another doctor!’ Can you imagine if such a practitioner were to start injecting people hither, thither and yon in Canada? Last year, the PRINCIPAL of my son’s school tried to convince me to NOT file a complaint about an Iranian teacher who slapped my son across the face in the schoolyard. ‘This is how they duiscipline in her country of origin,’ the principal begged. ‘Please try to understand.’ What I understood was that that Iranian teacher had not adjusted culturally to the practice of her professsion in THIS country. In Canada, NO teacher HITS a child. I complained mightily and loudly. Fact is that many, many professionals need to ADJUST CULTURALLY to Canadian standrads. Canada may be officially ‘multicultural’, but private corporatations, citizens and individuals are not ‘multicultural’ at all. By definition, they cannot be. For these latter folks, ‘the Canadian way’ is the preferred way - from how prescription drugs are introduced into our bodies to how our homes are built. The sooner this is recognized as how things are and NOT the circumstantial result of systemic racism, the sooner we’ll all be able to move on. But this is Canada. No one is EVER permitted to ‘move on’. Thank God for dual citizenship! At least some of us can move out when the time comes.
Posted 30/01/07 at 4:00 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
H Hansen from United States writes: Re: Adam Parkin. Has it ever occured to you that there are probably more students from ‘these countries’ than Canadians enrolled at Harvard, Yale, Oxford or the Sorbonne? The way you throw those out there as indicators of ‘highly educated’ easily shows there are indicators for the contrary.
Posted 30/01/07 at 4:06 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Irie Moonstone from Mystic Springs, Jamaica writes: Q S from Toronto - Right on brother. If some backwards Iranian woman of a teacher ever slapped my son I would be giving that ‘female dog’ a bit of my right fist and see how she liked it.
Posted 30/01/07 at 4:09 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
J.C. Davies from Canada writes: ‘A container ship captain and harbour trainer moves from Hong Kong to Vancouver. He is amiable, buys a home here, moves his family here. He can find no work even distantly related to his profession.’
Not a lot of container ships operate under Canadian flag. Jobs with BC Ferries are hard to come by, few opening with lots of applicants. Shouldn’t he have checked this out first before moving to Canada?
Posted 30/01/07 at 4:12 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
kwok kwong from toronto, Canada writes: as an immigrant 15 years ago, i am still working at wages about poverty line(i am univesity graduated), but my kids has escaped this curse as they are educated here, talking without accent, graduated from university with master degrees and working in USA at over 80K USD per annum. I would say the first generation of immigrants are to be sacrificed but our second generation will be fine here.
Posted 30/01/07 at 4:12 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Temporarily anonymous from Canada writes: I must say that this is a big problem that I have witnessed first hand. My partner is from a developing country. She excelled in an excellent professional undergraduate program there. It is generally assumed that these credentials do not have a Canadian equivalent, and are, thus, not recognized, even though I happen to know that the institution and program were both outstanding and her performance exceptional. She has had to go back to school and change her career path, rather than contributing her skills to Canadian society. I also think unintentional and subconscious, but serious and systemic racism is part of the problem, and this is something I wasn’t aware of before. Here is an anecdotal example of how subconscious racial profiling is done. Take a simple outing to Costco. When I go by myself or with my children, I rarely am asked to provide my card as identification. This has happened maybe 5-10% of the time. Generally, they just smile because they see that I have taken my card out of my pocket and hand me my discount page. However, every time I go with my wife (who has black hair and a darker complexion) we are asked to give them our ID. Every time! I wonder how often potential employers subconsciously and unintentionally fail to notice the positive traits in persons of colour in this country, especially those from another country. This might explain more of the difference in achievement of financial success and positions of authority than the need for ‘cultural adjustment’ that earlier posters have referred to.
Posted 30/01/07 at 4:17 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
A M from Concord, Canada writes: It’s all true, things like: some immigrants come here with poor language skills, doctors, engineers andseveral others do not have their profession recognized here, even though in most cases, the time spent in University was longer than it is here, etc. However, most skilled immigrants come to Canada and, once again, are highly skilled, have worked for large corporations and speak more than two languages. It is a whole different story when you start looking for jobs and everywhere you go you are told you have all the qualifications and more but you do not have Canadian experience! Well, if nobody is willing to give anybody a job in their field just because the person does not have ‘Canadian experience’, then, this person will never have such experience! As an immigrant myself, I was fluent in English and when I moved and started to look for jobs here, this was exactly what I was told: I had great qualifications and excellent work experience (exemple: I have worked for General Motors in the Treasury!), I had all knowledge they were looking for BUT did not have Canadian experience. This is where the Companies and the Agencies should stop and realize that, if the person has all the work experience, all the qualification they are looking for, has language skills (able to communicate ‘clearly’ in either English or Language), they should give this person the job. Do not tell me otherwise, because what happens in the labor market is pure discrimination, just because of the ‘location’ where the work experience was acquired. I do agree that the immigrant must be able to communicate in either languages in order to work, because it is really dissapointing to have to talk or work with somebody that has a very poor English/French and does not do anything about it, does not improve it and, is in Canada for years and years! This is what is wrong! Thank God I was able to get a job in my field and am always improving my skills, after all these years!
Posted 30/01/07 at 4:19 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
KY Chen from Canada writes: I came to Canada around 1990 as an “Enterprise Immigrant” with my two young kids. I spent the first two years to try to build my own business, unfortunately the company was closed due to the lost of big money. Then I back to University spent another two years to get a “Computer Science” degree even I have already hold B.S on Chemical Engineering before coming to Canada. Now, I am working in software firm and all my children are well educated and have good jobs as well.
As an immigrant, I have never expected to be treated specially, and I don’t see that this report ever mentioned those new immigrants are complaining the Canadian Government for their difficulties either. Why so many posters here are so unfriendly just because you were born here then you have every right?
Posted 30/01/07 at 4:20 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Tom Ward from Canada writes: Youssi M is clearly on the right track - employment based immigration would make a lot more sense both for employers and employees. Which is the whole point, really.
A few more thoughts:
1. A lot of immigrants are not presented with an honest idea of what to expect when they apply for immigration. I know this from experience.
2. Immigrants from certain countries are basically forced to burn their bridges when they leave - they can’t go back. Just try imagine no longer being able to go home.
3. When you come to someone else’s house, you abide by their rules. The same goes for immigration - you come to a country, you learn to live by its culture and values.
4. Non-professional labour is where the greatest shortages are, but to argue that Canada has a surplus of doctors is silly. Professional organizations need to undertake to find a fair way to assess immigrants skills rather than simply erecting barriers.
Posted 30/01/07 at 4:20 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
L H from Lima, Peru writes: It??s just sad how most of the comments show no sign of integration. Almost all posts are worded in terms of ‘them’ and ‘us’. I just got the Canadian residence, my English is ok but far from perfect (even when I obtained a Master??s degree at McGill), and have no job in Canada. Should I go to Canada? Is it a good option for me and my family (I have got a wife and a little baby). Who knows. The main reason why I want to emigrate from Peru is its financial instability and criminality. It??s funny how some people judge so easily what immigrants have or not have to do before coming to Canada, withouth thinking of what are the reasons why we decide to migrate. In my case, I don??t want to take advantage (in the bad sense) of social services, like welfare or charities. Relying exclusively on that kind of services would be humiliating to me. I want to get there to get a better life, and in return, pay taxes and help to build a rich society (hopefully). But I don??t want to feel excluded, left out. Will I succeed? I will let you know.
Posted 30/01/07 at 4:20 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
green grass from Canada writes: All I can say is that Canada is very lucky indeed to have people like Yvonne Wackernagel amongst her citizens. I would advise all posters to read her post again, very slowly! Thank you, Yvonne for some very good reading!!
Posted 30/01/07 at 4:22 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Surfer Dude from Seattle, Washington, United States writes: Come to the US like I did.
I was an immigrant to Canada. Arrived with my parents when I was 3. Went to University courtesy of Canadian Taxpayers. No opportunities for my job in Canada so came to this wonderful country called the US with multiple offers. No opportunities in Canada due to high tax and few employers. Canadians think they live in a wonderful utopian dream world but the reality is a lot different!
Posted 30/01/07 at 4:25 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Rob Bairos from Toronto, Canada writes: >Tyler Somers from Canada writes: Rob — Well, if the population of Canada were all millionaires then I suppose your point would be worth something.
My point still stands if the population of Canada consisted of tin shacks
and slums.
>The next sentence in the paragraph you so selectively quoted from mentions the cutoff for a low income family of four is less than 30K a year. I don’t know about you, but that doesn’t sound like a whole lot.
Tyler I grew up in an immigrant family of four considered low income.
Two parents working 6 and 7 day weeks at minimum wage for years.
We did without most of the modern conveniences that most low income
families enjoy today. We were far below the median in terms of education,
earning, and language skills.
So in answer to your question, yes to me, that does sound like a whole lot.
Posted 30/01/07 at 4:32 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
D B from Canada writes: In response to Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville, Canada:
After reading your pedantic rant, one which focuses on criticizing someone’s grammar more than making a valid point, it’s quite clear to see who is on her high horse.
As a doltish school teacher, born, raised, and educated in Canada, my grasp of the English language is just as good as anyone’s. Apparently, stereotypes are only offensive to you when they are made about people who are not Canadian-born.
Thank goodness you immigrated to Canada, otherwise we would have nothing against which to measure arrogance. Please feel free to correct my spelling and grammar, if you don’t agree with me.
Posted 30/01/07 at 4:36 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Temporarily anonymous from Canada writes: Bill notGates: A racist individual is Bill notGates. Can you imagine how much he would complain if these injustives were perpetrated upon him? Look how he’s wimpering right now, when no one has done anything to him.
Posted 30/01/07 at 4:43 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Larry Robinson from white Rock, writes: J.C. Davies - My point, poorly described, is that Canada is no longer the first destination for accomplished people. The Captain’s relatives include a president of an Asian oil company and family members in executive positions in the U.S. and Asia. When I asked them, ‘Why not Canada?’ they politely laughed and said they want to make money, not retire. We are now in a global economy and it is in our best interest to encourage trade, discussion and immigration without prejudice from countries around the globe.
Posted 30/01/07 at 4:44 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
J.C. Davies from Canada writes: L H: ‘I want to get there to get a better life, and in return, pay taxes and help to build a rich society (hopefully). But I don????t want to feel excluded, left out. Will I succeed? ‘
Thank you for reminding us what immigration is really about, people building better lives in Canada. Millions of Canadians want you to succeed as well. Good luck!
Posted 30/01/07 at 4:44 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Another X Canadian from United States writes: Surfer Dude - I concur entirely. Having spent 5 years in Canada trying to build a life there and then moving to the US to suddenly find so much more opportunity, I can only say to any immigrant concerned about his prospects in Canada - don’t believe the lies and propaganda you read in the Cdn media about the US - it is light years ahead of Canada when it comes to giving people a chance to see what they can do. You owe it to yourself to make the most of your life. Most Cdns seem to feel that skilled immigrants come to Canada to use their medical system or some other social safety net - they just can’t understand that people who move to another country are highly motivated and willing to work hard to succeed. Unlike most native Cdns they don’t take anything for granted but only want to be given a chance to see what they can contribute. The US recognizes this and offers them that chance and that is why it is a more dynamic and thriving society than Canada will ever be. By the way, Adam Parkin - I am one ‘these people’ who happens to come from one of the countries you are referring to, but I also happen to have a first class honours degree from a British school and a Master’s Degree from an Ivy League school in the US. You should be ashamed to display your ignorance and prejudice even over the relative anonymity of the Internet.
Posted 30/01/07 at 4:47 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Black Adder from Toronto, Canada writes: L H from Lima, Peru - Congratulations on your degree. I hope you find Canada welcoming to you and your family.
Please don’t let the posters here colour your judgment of Canada. Many posters here seem to forget that unless they are first-nations, they too are immigrants. Ironically, these same posters will complain about the benefits received by first nations people too. It is simply in their nature to complain.
I have lived in Canada for over 30 years. I have traveled quite extensively and I can say without a doubt that I prefer to live in Canada.
This phase we are going through is a bit troubling. Some people and businesses (and some politicians) have dropped any pretence of civility toward immigrants. I like to prefer, these people are in the minority and perhaps need to get out more, and the phase is temporary.
LH from Lima Peru – welcome to and your family to Canada.
Posted 30/01/07 at 5:00 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
SY SY from Montreal, Canada writes: For some posters here, it seems you still don’t understand that your competition is not from the immigrants here, you think that you kick all immigrants out of Canada then you will have more job security? Please open your eyes, now, it is the global competition. How many North American companies or plants have been closed or outsourcing to India and China? You think that you can speak only English (not even speak a bit of Canadian second language “French”), you think you still can keep your job forever? In your dream!
Posted 30/01/07 at 5:03 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
R. M. from Regina, Canada writes: Having worked with numerous immigrants who are highly educated and had every barrier in the world thrown their way in terms of getting their qualifcations recognized this type of issue deserves much more public debate and exposure. For example, a Masters graduate had to demonstrate he could pass a basic mathematics test before he could take a diploma program in college. It was an insult to his intelligence, his training and to the education system in his country where Physics was studied from Grade 9 on. There has to be a better and quicker way to recognize qualifications. After all when it comes to post-secondary education “expertise” Canada is a baby compared to most of the countries immigrants arrive from.
Posted 30/01/07 at 5:05 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Patrick Nash from Toronto, Canada writes: Irie Moonstone from Mystic Springs. I’m an arrogant Brit. I’m also from Devon. And a lawyer for that matter. But, I was told to take my legal accreditation off my resume in order to find work when I first arrived in Canada and have not practiced law in the more than a decade that I have been here. You say that “Brits are the most arrogant race on the planet and offer nothing to a new country when all they do is complain.” You’ve just described Brixton in London. Demographic? Predominently Jamaican. You’ve also just described your own postings.
Posted 30/01/07 at 5:09 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
J K from Canada writes: I think the problem is too many people want the white collar jobs and not enough people want the blue collar jobs. There is just too many educated university grads. And one piece of advice – avoid going into information technology.
Posted 30/01/07 at 5:10 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
A Smith from London, Canada writes: It’s delusional for people to believe that language is secondary to the skills that a highly skilled worker has. Consider a lawyer who learns English in Canada. Do you think that they will have problems reading those massive legal documents with all kinds of legal terms? You can’t learn on the job either. In high-tech fields, communicating verbally, to colleagues, to peers, customers and clients, reading documents, attending seminars and meetings isn’t something you can learn in any ESL course.
When it comes to highly skilled jobs, lanaguage isn’t a part of the job or secondary to the skills. It IS the job.
Posted 30/01/07 at 5:14 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
dave srigley from Toronto, Canada writes: Too many immigrants not enough jobs. Immigration should be cut back to 50,000/year, not 250,000!
Posted 30/01/07 at 5:16 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
gargi ganguli from montreal, Canada writes: I was born here but my parents immigrated from India. My Dad had so little money when he first came here that he had to live on apple juice and bread for three months. He worked odd jobs in order to redo his degrees in engineering, and paid to have my Mom redo her degree in Economics. The only thing he got for free was a French course. After a lot of slogging, my parents ended up living in an affluent neighbourhood, and sending me to school in Europe for my Master’s. I’m now a hypereducated vegetarian slacker in my early thirties, picky about my wine, working on a novel in Montreal.
Who’d all you anti-immigrant neocons rather have in the country, my Dad or me???
Posted 30/01/07 at 5:26 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Chi Guy from Chicago, United States writes: Yvonne Wackernagel, May be you should stop hanging out with the folks down at the trailer park and go talk to some common Canadians. I have met people from all over the world and in my opinion Canadians are some of the most intelligent and articulate that I have had the pleasure of chatting with. I know you’ll slam me for some reason because I&8217;m an American I guess or could be my grammar is not up to snuff for a Brit but that fact alone does not mean that I can&8217;t express my opinion and it should not stop others from doing it either. The fact that you slam Canadians so often just goes to show why you indeed are not Canadian.
Posted 30/01/07 at 5:28 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
J.C. Davies from Canada writes: “I’m now a hypereducated vegetarian slacker in my early thirties, picky about my wine, working on a novel in Montreal”.
Your parents must be proud! (of course neocons are pro-immigration, its the traditional cons who were less enthusiastic about immigration)
Posted 30/01/07 at 5:31 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Steve *** from United States writes: As an immigrant and as a Canadian graduate, I can say we haven’t even come close to the problem. Educated Canadians and immigrants have the very same problem in finding good jobs. If anyone has ever gone to any job seminars the work “networking” should be familiar to you. Right now what we have is “Sopranos’ connection”. if you are trying to find a good job. Now it doesn’t matter who you are or what kind of education you have. If you don’t have someone close inside you don’t get a good paying job. If you don’t believe me just look around you. It is everywhere and IT IS WRONG
Posted 30/01/07 at 5:31 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
Youssi M from Canada writes: One point that no one made yet:
People write how “third world” degrees do not have much value in Canada, relative to the home countries. There is another dimension to this: there is an educational boom in many developing countries, with too many schools offering degrees of no real value even in the country of origin. Say, if you are an Asian with an Accounting/IT/Biotech degree from one of the better schools there plus you have done some internships, you will get a N.A.-level salary, you may get enquiries from American or European companies. The problem,though, is with provincial schools churning out thousands of graduates whose diplommas are worthless in eyes of employers there. Those degrees are not enough to get job interviews there but are perfectly fine as proof of marketable skill for Immigration Canada.
From some anecdotical evidence I’d guess (can you guys can confirm/deny ?) that majority of skilled immigrants moving to Canada without a job offer hold degrees (and CVs) that would not be competitive in home countries.
Posted 30/01/07 at 5:35 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
darren silverthorn from Canada writes: Maybe we should cut immigration in order to ease the burden they are becoming on our social system, real canadians seem to have quite a hard time getting any kind of assistance, yet immigrants seem to be able to come here and are immediately put on it.
Posted 30/01/07 at 5:38 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
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